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Firm 'no'. Less play-drinking, more fighting.

It takes one to know one.

Honestly don't think the whole bar thing interferes with anything, so why close it? I say "yes" to keep it open.

I feel like continuous roleplay like this would be better served in a room on it's own and help make the lobby a little more friendly for open conversation and less intimidating for new people, who might otherwise see the roleplay and think they have come into something more private, leaving them less likely to interact in the lobby itself.

I agree if I am looking for a convo or to chat with others the Var Roleplay imposes itself onto my purpose for logging on. If I wanted to be part of a bar Roleplay I would go to an actual bar. And has anyone even considered the recovering alcoholics this makes it impossible for them to log on without a relapse temptation

The block function is a remedy that already exist, if somebody is throwing out dialogue you do not like, then block them. Problem solved.

I see no problem with people having fun in public spaces. If fictional role-play drinking is off the table in terms of activity for public spaces, then where do you draw the line between activities. Talking with an accent with each other, giving a handshake, putting on events, talking about your lives, talking about your matches. If the lobby is going to be restricted to only "Looking for matches", then there are a lot of offenders on here that engage without being part of "the bar".

That's my two cents on the matter and I respect how The Tech and The Ref adjudicate this.

I think that it will be ok, after all, there are not harm done on it

The whole bar stuff belongs in a dedicated room really.
There has been a quite negative shift to the lobby since that round-the-clock bar stuff "wandered in".

This has today even been confirmed by new accounts that avoid the lobby because they don't feel welcome there because of the bar shenanigans.

There has never been any fight roleplay in the lobby, because everyone just realises that it does not belong, because it is too longwinded for the main public entry room of the chat. Same goes for a longwinded ongoing bar scene imho.

And there are adventages to moving it to a seperate public or federation room. Much longer chat history, possibility to integrate the storylines of the "bar" into the federation stories, name it...

But those things are not considered by "the bar people", as proven by this response from earlier today in the lobby to someone who questioned the whole bar roleplay: Madison Jones "It will be nice to have more Bartenders on duty all the time here in the Lobby, right @Astrotorical?" I smile and take drink. )

That alone proves they do it to annoy people...

I'm pretty sure that was a sarcastic comment, given how petty Astrotorical was acting earlier.

So, expressing opinions on your bar scene's is now petty?
Thanks for sharing that nice statement! :)

You're taking a message out of context to make it look bad. But it's okay, the admins can check the whole log instead of just the one message you decided to share.

You are right, here is more context, all said right in the middle of people discussing what their issues with the bar scene are. Talk about being provocative and trying to offend/trigger people on purpose! 🤷‍♂️

15:42 Blank
"Thank you!" Moves towards my office. "Have an early meeting, possible new hire be back in a few Maddy!"

15:42 Madison Jones
"Oh really Blank? I look forward to that." I smile.

15:43 Madison Jones
"It will be nice to have more Bartenders on duty all the time here in the Lobby, right @Astrotorical?" I smile and take drink.

I am sure the Admins have access to the full log where they can see how aggressive Astrotorical was being during the whole thing, not to mention others. Thank you for your cropped and biased selection.

Yeah hey, what did I say that was aggressive to you? I distinctly remember just sort of ignoring the majority of what you were saying and you kept trying to initiate. Obviously you could have very easily blocked me, but regardless. Some of us don't have the logs haha. I recall trying to make a point about how if you roleplay in a public room you are open to having that roleplay ruined, and I guess maybe I did so in an aggressive way? IDK you definitely remember me more than I do you so help me out here.

That's okay if you don't remember me. The thing I remember about you is that you were being a complete asshole to me and my friends. Regardless I have blocked you and no longer wish to engage, because as I keep saying around here, the block function works. I'm done with you, leave me alone.

Alright, what I was trying to do was get some of the things I said together, appoligize, that sort of thing. For real, noone likes dealing with bad people so if I was one, really I am sorry for that. No excuses, I very vaguely recall some of the things and if they were upsetting then that is my bad. I am in the wrong. If theres anything in particular I need to amend, you let me know. Not asking to get unblocked, would prefer it if you dont.

Wait, no, better idea. Nevermind, Madison I know how to make amends.

I would love to block you

Taking pot shots at me here doesn't really help the issue, especially when you remove the context of how aggressive Astrotorical was being towards me. That being said, as the person who blocked me because I confronted you for making personal attack on me in a public space while I was present, an act which violates the rules of the site, I'm not too surprised by your behavior.

As you have illustrated and I was promoting earlier today, the block function works. You blocked me and you don't get to see my dialogue more. People like you don't get to tell me how I can have fun in public spaces, especially when there is a function in play to filter out my dialogue. Anybody here can block me or those engage in any activity, bar or not, in the lobby.

I blocked you because you got all snooty after i told you that several people (including me) were having issues with your acting in the lobby. But you ignored them, and got snooty when i pressed the matter.

After which i blocked you.

The fact that you again are making a scene here now in the comments, and trying to blame me for the fact that more and more people are taking issue with your bar stuff, proves the point that we are trying to make, that you are just bullying and being passive aggressive to anyone who has any form of critique on your bar stuff....

I believed the phrase you use was "He talks like he's in a Dicken novel." As though that is somehow a serious offense.

You don't get to tell me how I have fun in public spaces. You blocked me, and that is your right. You did so after I tried to have a conversation with you I was trying to take private. Regardless I'm done with you. I don't need you taking pot shots at me here in the comments that are removed from context.

Azn is a serial blocker. he has way to thin a skin. Also, he seems to get mad at some people who say the wrong things in the lobby or just talk too much in the lobby. But hypocritically, he's guilty of many of the same offenses he accuses others of.

Agree. A serial blocker really has should not have much to say about what is discussed in the lobby since he likely only can read parts of it.

If someone does not post in the lobby, we don't know why they're not posting unless we ask them specifically. They might dislike the bar RP, or they might just prefer to directly message people who interest them.

When I first joined the site, I initially didn't post in the lobby at all, and it was the bar crew that eventually encouraged me to be more active.

It often happens that nothing gets posted in the lobby at all for a long time. If the bar roleplay was actively inhibiting non-roleplayers from posting, we would see increased activity from non-roleplayers during those hours, which is not the case. (I would also add that roleplayers vs non-roleplayers is a false dichotomy, since there are users who sometimes RP, and other times talk out of character.)

And conversely, there are instances where several dozen messages get posted in the lobby within a short time, none of which are the bar RP. So it doesn't seem to be the case that "bar" is preventing anyone from having a conversation in the lobby about their real lives.

An argument made in the lobby chat was that lobby used to be more active and diverse in the previous months/years, and that it is the bar RP that killed this activity and diversity. This is speculation. It might be simply the case that the pool of active users dwindled over time, which happens to many different websites.

I would be one of those that you are dubious about existing. Member since October 2019. I do not use the lobby chat nearly as much as I used to, specifically because of the bar role play. It's never ceasing and distracting, the 'bar people' have become the 'mean girls' of this chat room, if you're not part of that clique, there's a passive aggressive exclusion. People aren't inclined to speak up, they ignore it or don't come back. And if they do, well, just look at the chat history. They're called whiners and complainers, as AZN Puncher noted, they purposely look to escalate because some voiced their opinions.

I think the bar RP livens up the lobby, and in my experience at least, new characters are welcomed. Otherwise the lobby is just a place where people post random requests for matches/scenes. Nothing wrong with that, but the bar RP doesn't "distract" from that, imo.

If people are made to feel unwelcome, that should be addressed directly, whether there is a bar RP or not. Those who don't like the bar RP can ignore it. "Banning" a generic type of RP seems silly. Also, there's no end to what some might decide is "distracting" in the lobby. That's what the existing block or mute functions are for if some characters are not your cup of tea.

I feel the title of the poll is a bit disingenuous to what the actually topic is, and I don't think you were here for the debate that happened but to sum it, no one is trying to ban the RP. The suggestion was made (by myself and supported by others) to have it moved to a room or federation where those who want to participate in it can do so without it disturbing conversations in the lobby or people in the lobby being dragged into the roleplay without their consent (something that has happened to me multiple times which is why I suggested it be taken to a room that isn't the general lobby).

I will say that Kit has a valid point. It is possible that continuous roleplay could be off putting to new people. i will say that i can't recall anyone who took part in that Bar roleplay being rude or acting like "mean girls" to other members of the site. i do recall people teasing others off and on before the "Bar" was created. it happened to me once so badly i changed my name.

i guess the main lobby should be used for general questions directed to the entire membership of Chatfighters. I don't see any other use for it. If some members what to hold a conversation with more than two people, then a private room should be created.

I'm sorry that happened to you Chad, and yes there is a lot of teasing, and worse that can happen in the lobby which does need to stop. I personally would disagree with AZN on them being the "mean girls" but there is a bit of animosity towards those that did not engage with the bar RP (again happened to me a lot despite actively trying to ignore it).

The purpose of the lobby shouldn't be dedicated to questions about membership, it should just be a general lobby where people can talk about whatever the topic of the moment should be.

The heart of the argument isn't if the Bar RP is bad, at least that's not why I suggested the move, but simply that the Bar RP had grown to such a level the it drown out any other conversations when it was going, which was most of the time. At that point the group of people that engage in that RP would be better served to have their own room and attract like minded people. The lobby is a great place to start that kind of roleplay on a small scale but once it grows and you have a niche you fill it would be time to move the RP to it's own room which gives more features and ultimately, in my opinion, only helps the members of the RP and frees up the lobby to return to general conversation that anyone can jump into.

you're very articulate. i'll just disagree on your comment that the lobby could be used for a "kind of rolelay on a small scale". No. It is too easy to create a temporary room. People do it all the time for matches. If you are going to role play even a short while, then obviously you might be off putting to those who don't want it in the lobby at all. And one can't define "small scale." we've made the decision to create a room for the bar. it is practical and any roleplay should be done in a separate room from here on out. This should be a formal rule for Chatfighters
The other quibble is that conversations are between small groups of people. There will rarely be a conversation that any one can jump into, especially in a chat room as too many participants make a conversation very difficult to follow. And you always have the issue that not everyone gets along. And you will never know if your general conversation exclude members from the chat room. After all they are unlikely to speak up.

I don't think a full on all or nothing approach is a good way to do it. At what point do you consider something to be a roleplay? If someone has a character and stays in that character all the time, is that roleplay and they should have their own room for that then? What about when I do dumb little things like responding to something I don't understand with *blinks in audible confusion* is that roleplay and should not be allowed in the lobby?

Basically the way I see it is that if the roleplay that is happening is just a couple sentences, we see that all the time in people greeting each other, and it isn't drowning out all other conversation and/or going nearly constantly it should be welcomed. The lobby is the first place new people see, and the first place most people in general see when they join the chat, saying that no RP should be allowed at all is a slippery slope and one that I think would be bad for everyone in the long term. As I have said more than a few times in various posts on this topic, I think the lobby should be open for everyone and sometimes those small little roleplays turn into great things, it's just a matter of trying to balance when it becomes too much. It's not an easy thing to do by any means and it will take us working together as a community to achieve but I think on the whole everyone here is cool enough to help make that work.

Just to be picky with analogy and metaphor, i think the "NO RP " option would be the excessively inflexible nail. The "small roleply" would be the slippery slope. Or something like that.

And you can try to maintain balance and it might work. But we make rules for people who can't follow the rules and i am sure that there will be some people who won't like the small scale roleplay and some people who will take the small scale roleplay too far. it's a question of how many. Time will tell that.

Also, if there is an interesting roleplay going on, do you really think it will be limited to 2 or 3 sentences? i find that idea amusing. If it is limited to that, it's probably not really roleplaying. But if you have a roleplaying event that emerges, is it ok to goes on for two paragraphs? what determines what is too long? If you enjoy it? what if i don't enjoy it? do i get a right to pipe up and tell them to get a room? I normally just ignore rp i don't like or try to. "it will take us working together as a community to achieve." That is not going to happen because there is never complete agreement. if some people start doing small scale roleplay, then at this stage it will you and whatever group forms promoting it and a large number of people will not be participating.

When I talk about RP in the lobby it should be, at the most, a sort of jumping off point. Once you realize that it's going to actually turn into a full on roleplay, with lots of back and forth and stuff actually going on beyond just trying to get someone's attention, at that point it's just good form to take it somewhere private.

The bar is actually a great example of what I mean. When it first started it was just a few people who would start off their "intro" to the chat room by sitting down and ordering a drink. Basically just a small icebreaker, all good there. Then we reached the point where it was a constant thing with interviews for positions and something of a story behind the bar and it's patrons, at that point it's not just a little thing anymore and it would be time to move it out of the lobby and into it's own space.

The same applies to individual RPs, I've done this myself, where I start by joking around with someone, maybe even RP throwing a kick or something, and the moment it seems like the person is interested, I hit them up in DMs to see if they want to take it further. That's what I mean about needing balance. The slippery slope is if we ban all RP because we decide that the lobby should only be for casual conversation and nothing else, do we then stop people who just spam that they are looking for a match and make a new room just for "looking for a match"? It's really easy to take that extreme and make it more extreme where as saying that we need a balance enables us as a community to work together to decide when the line has been crossed rather than try to make a hard and fast rule "no rp in the lobby ever of any kind"

Again, not unreasonable. I would add extended conversations to your discussion about roleplaying. The issue for the Lobby as i see it is when a conversation or roleplaying becomes so extensive that a short request gets drowned out. i see what you mean by slippery slope now. though, i don't see agree with the connection between a roleplay or extended conversations and short requests. The first two involve 2 or more people flooding the lobby. The latter is a single person making a request. i don't really see a slippery slope there. Keep in mind i am not advocating banning all RPs from the room. After all, i like the bar. i am just saying that there is a slippery slope from banning the bar to banning roleplaying in general. After all, not everyone will agree with me or agree with you about that issue. i think that is pretty close to a statement of fact.

Again, not unreasonable. I would add extended conversations to your discussion about roleplaying. The issue for the Lobby as i see it is when a conversation or roleplaying becomes so extensive that a short request gets drowned out. i see what you mean by slippery slope now. though, i don't see agree with the connection between a roleplay or extended conversations and short requests. The first two involve 2 or more people flooding the lobby. The latter is a single person making a request. i don't really see a slippery slope there. Keep in mind i am not advocating banning all RPs from the room. After all, i like the bar. i am just saying that there is a slippery slope from banning the bar to banning roleplaying in general. After all, not everyone will agree with me or agree with you about that issue. i think that is pretty close to a statement of fact.

I was not dubious about the existence of people who are less active because of the bar RP, since a few of them stated so in the lobby chat today. I was dubious about the argument that the fact the vast majority of users does not post in the lobby at all is because there's a "bar" in there. For some people it is the case, obviously, but to get any reliable data, we would need a survey sent to every account.
My guess is that most would not care either way.

Feeling intimidated and excluded by a conversation can happen regardless of whether this conversation includes RP or not. My experience is that I was more often ignored by people outside of this clique, when I tried to strike up a conversation.

The lobby has gone through cycles, busy then dead. At least that is how i remember it. i think Lightening created the bar when the lobby was in graveyard mode.

Exactly Nick.
That is also what a new (well, few weeks old) account posted in the lobby earlier today, that it's offputting to them and they just dont feel welcome to speak in the lobby in general.

If you dont like the bar stuff they start bullying and going all passive agressive. Same is happening here in the poll comments now too.

I personally also remember the lobby pre june/july, and most of the people who then had conversatoins about everything, anything, and fictious/real all combined, are still around, but have switched to private chats, because of exactly the things you mention!

Thanks for sharing your views!

Like in most public spaces the world over........you have a lobby and you have another room where the bar is, it is best that they are separated....
I have noticed that it is becoming like an exclusive club in the bar......we have to be very careful here......and have noticed that it is getting "owned" by a few people..

The lobby has not had a dedicated purpose and the bar showed up in that undefined vacuum. Yes it might offend some people, but as it stands right now, not against the rules. There has been an unspoken notion that roleplay, fight action, declarations of territory and ownership of the lobby space is not cool.

If you have roleplay threads and action operating in the lobby, maybe that's bending the intent of public room use. Over the years, I have been involved in public BDSM dungeon play. No shit, we'd rent the ballroom of a nice hotel, lay out dungeon gear, and make a convention around hard play. but the lobby was to be a sanitized space - NO one wants to see your girlfriends bruised tits in the lobby. That's considered involving other people in your scene without consent to be in that scene.

We had a huge debate about "Littles." This is people that want to dress as toddlers, play with dolls, and regress to a childlike space and have "Daddy" or "Mommy" come hold them, play with their toys and other biological things. On the surface a harmless person. But wait, what happens when Mommy wants to spank and fuck her little man. Are we watching a pedo act here? or a diaper change.... some people do want to watch that, but few. And what's wrong with a little girl in her new sun dress and bonnet coming up to your man-sub while you're in a flogging-fuck scene and asking him if he wants to hold her dolly to help him get over the pain?

We have to respect each other enough to find our correct boundaries, state what we like, and listen respectfully when someone else says, "Your fun isn't my fun." I for one am not comfortable when a raft of women come into what used to be male space. I want to be polite, but any word sometimes looks like I'm interested in playing. But ignoring the women feels fuck-all rude. If they had a room/lobby to look for what they want, that works.

The lobby needs to be defined. I suggest we make it neutral and set up some chat rooms for other chat functions. Let's be honest here. The chit-chat keeps us a community and needs to be included somehow. (We cannot be a community if we don't commune.) I would like the bar in it's own room so I can be more comfortable with the roleplay I put in there.

We are strong enough to make this change to accommodate the staggering growth in this place, and do it peacefully.

As always, you are the voice of reason Erik, thank you for that, and for acknowledging that the lobby has never been a place of of roleplay, fights, or ownership and things in the past.

And it should remain like that, as you say, it should be defined.
As stated in this thread a few times already by both Kit, others, and myself, nobody wants to abolish the bar, we just feel like the lobby isnt the right place for it because it runs nearly 24/7.
But it seems that shouting "you are trying to block my public fun" is more interesting then looking at the alternatives, even if those offer advantages.

The lobby has a very short chat history, whereas dedicated rooms and federation rooms go up to 30 days, which them much more suited for long term roleplay that can run over several days. It would even make it much handier to include "bar conversations" in stories.

But it seems that those benefits are lost in the shouting :-)

The shouting is difficult. And in truth expected. We are deep creatures of habit. When our fun, whether its about who you're cybering or fighting, who you're fucking, or debating the Designated Hitter rule, people hate changing. In this conversation I ask all my friends here to expect some sharp words and confusion while we work this out.

I agree the rooms are suited to longer storage of play. I personally enjoy sitting in the bar and find it irritating when I am in a conversation and someone interjects "Anyone want to spank my tits?" Well, in that case, never mind my irritation - where else is she gonna ask? We need to cut some slack in all directions here. In the end, Admin is going to have to make choices and we will have to live with those choices.

If the bar was moved to a separate room, I am pretty sure it would stop existing, i.e. no one would roleplay it anymore. But perhaps the future will prove me wrong, we shall see.
It's interesting that you mention "ownership" of the lobby space as bad form. Not sure how you define ownership, but according to my intuitive understanding, a lot of different behaviors could qualify under that category (for instance, two old friends getting in an in-depth discussion about their private lives, or a topic that other people have no context for), and if bar RP were to be banned, then, for the sake of consistency and fairness, all those other behaviors should be as well.

So if moving the bar to its own room would cause it to stop existing, then clearly people don't actually enjoy that RP, correct? If it is such a welcoming thing and so well loved then moving it to its own dedicated room would only serve to make it better. You are basically saying "I'd rather have my party in the lobby of the hotel, than in the dedicated party room." And that just doesn't make sense to me.

That room has just been created. #WelCum

I just saw that, it's a great idea.

I see what you mean, but I don't think that that would be the cause. The Rp now goes on, because lobby is the default room and it's easy for people to jump in and out of the RP when the mood strikes them. Joining a separate room occupies a space in your tab bar and requires a commitment of sorts. My intuition is that most people would not want to commit in such a way, which would cause the number of people participating to dwindle, and the whole thing would die out eventually.
But from what's happening now in the lobby, it seems your suggestion is actually being implemented, so I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

I understand where you are coming from and I will continue to assert that if it is something that people do in fact enjoy that much they would want to put that tiny bit of commitment of having it on their bar to do it. And if not, then it wasn't something that was wanted. If you honestly look at the number of people that do actually interact with the bar rp the number is very low, with several of those people being multiple characters of one account.

i dont understand people saying "i dont interact because of the bar rp" i mean......if the bar is "banned" whats next? does the lobby just become a place to say "sexfight" "fight me" "im looking for ___" at that point it isnt really a lobby and is just a glorified message board. Would those folks who say they're intimidated by the "bar" regulars be more likely to post on such a board/lobby? Idk, i really dont see the harm in it. My two cents. Keep the change.

As its been said several times, no one is trying to ban the bar rp. Hell at first I actually thought it was a neat thing that people were pseudo rping a welcoming environment just to shoot the shit. Now though that bar rp is nearly constant, as AZN mentioned, and if anyone makes even just a side comment in a conversation about being hungry or thirsty or whatever they get dragged into this rp that they may not have wanted to be in. As I mentioned this happened to me personally several times and I'm left with the choice to either engage in an rp I don't want to be in or look like a dick for ignoring the person clearly talking to me. However if this RP were to be moved to a room or federation no one has to make that choice, if they join that room then they want to participate in that RP. Simple and honestly it's a win win. The bar rp loses literally nothing, unless of course it's something that isn't actually enjoyed as it is and instead is just being used to cause drama that is.

to answer your question, yes, the lobby will devolve into a place to say "i'm looking for__" and "hello" , "how are you?" "thanks" but the people speak.

Currently I am having a conversation with a few other people about food and eating healthy and all kinds of other stuff. While yes you will get times that the lobby doesn't have much going on, we had that when the bar RP was there too, but it's by no means the end of the lobby or anything like that. There's still going to always be all kinds of conversations that will happen, as long as talkative people like me are around. It's really not true to say it will just devolve into those simple sentences because...well it doesn't.

Maybe. But over the 2 plus years, my observation is that the lobby moves in cycles. Groups appear and dominate the lobby; then the groups dissolve and the lobby becomes moribund. Then the groups re-evolve and the Lobby becomes active again. Again, having been present during the creation of the bar, things were rather very quiet in the Bar. Otherwise, I don't think the bar would have been created. i recall that some people actually said the bar would liven things up.

But this is my last contribution to this thread. i agree that it is best to create a room for the bar. Apparently, all of this happened out in the open. (?) If so, it would have been nice if this were all discussed and resolved backstage in private chat.

Close the Lobby all together and just have rooms and see what happens? All the complainers will make their way to the #Welcum BAR to sit on the sidelines. If their not complaining about the conversation they will post “ZZZZZZZZin the Lobby. As an American Citizen we take censorship seriously. A name is a name by any other name. Call it a Bar, call it a Senior Citizens Center or an Animal Shelter, call it what every. you want; drinks will still be served, Animals will still show up looking for candy, and guys will continue to talk about what they had for lunch and others looking for SEX FIGHTS. There is a fine fine line, between reality and pretend, never confuse the two.
I voted to save the bar!
The Man behind MRON.

I really like participating in the bar rp stuff personally! I think its super welcoming and helped me feel a little more welcome in the community! BUT with that being said, if the bar rp in the lobby makes others feel alienated and like they don't belong, I think it should be moved to its own room instead. Its still there for anyone to hop in and join if they wanna chat, but it wont be as forceful! Whatever makes everyone the happiest! :3

Wonderfully said.

Thank Pam for her point about the "bar" actually being welcoming. I've been a member almost since this site was created. Frankly, before the bar, there were little cliques having conversations and dominating the lobby anyway. I understand the bar potentially being off putting and the argument to move it to a separate room. However, i know that there was some awful 'mean girl" behavior by various people before the bar was a twinkle in Lightening's eye.

In time, groups will probably form around the stronger personalities in the lobby. Maybe.

Having said all this, consensus is needed. And after discussion, a large population of the community doesn't want the bar in the lobby, then the bar pretty much has to move.

i do want to point out ErikAtlas' comment in the thread above. Anything can be irritating. People shouting out their fetishes are irritating. Maybe that should stop too. Read the profiles and approach people individually. Let's make sure the lobby is completely inoffensive.

Chad, I appreciate your sentiment here greatly. I try to not be offensive to anyone and try to celebrate people as they are, so I try to live by this sort of sentiment in my day-to-day interactions. But can we actually make the lobby "completely inoffensive?" Is that possible? What are the rules of accordance for that?

There were people that were offended that I tried to connect new people with links to specific Feds when the new person asked about it in chat. I have harkened back to this several times in this thread because, to me, it clearly demonstrates how different people see the same thing in different lights: some as offensive, some as completely acceptable. And it's not that I'm saying there aren't some clearly offensive things that we're blind to sometimes - that has just been a pattern in too much of human history. But despite that, I just don't see how we can pursue a goal of being completely inoffensive as a community when that doesn't truly allow for a diverse set of paths. How do we set rules or precedence for the lobby that makes things "completely inoffensive" for all? I don't believe we can (but am certainly open to seeing that different, of course).

For myself, I try to think of these things by asking myself what our community needs and meeting the needs of as many in our community as possible. And to that point, I think there are some clear needs not being met here, which we should address together.

I typed my comment fast. But I agree with everything you said Red Bear. I tried to make a more limited comment. Chatfighters, as you recognize, is a community and the lobby is a common area. I think that is one of Kit's points.
In practical terms in order for the bar to continue in the lobby, a plurality not just a majority would be needed to agree. I would rather create the separate room than have 30-40% of the member leave Chatfighters. Compromise, that's all. Having said that, i don't agree with the people who criticized the bar. As i said to Kit in an earlier post, there was all sorts of behavior that was off putting to some BEFORE the bar was created. more so i'd say. i maintain that the Bar lowered the amount of nasty behavior.

But i totally agree with you. Trying to achieve complete inoffensiveness is a utopia, a fantasy. Generally people who push for "complete inoffensiveness" are dangerous.

This ^ 100% this.

I continue to say the block function solves this problem, people just need to be willing to use the tools at their disposal. If somebody making a drink for another in a public space is so offensive, then I'd say somebody talking about their subway sandwich, lunch, or injury is just as bad.

The Bar RP in the lobby isn't hurting anybody. If somebody is really upset about it, block the the offender the same way I block a person who is going on every 5 minutes about wanting a naked fight with stakes.

It really doesn't. You should probably read these comments from both sides to see what the debate is actually about instead of digging your heels in to die on a hill that no one is even climbing.

As of writing this comment, you have done 24 replies in this thread. I've done 10 and created a room for the Bar RP. I'm not the one "dying" on this hill Kit, if anything it sure look like you are the one digging your heels in to me.

Not at all, I'm trying to help. The first step in that is compromise. Yes I've been doing a lot of replies because I want to understand all sides of it and I genuinely want what's best for our community.

I want to help keep our lobby active, and believe it or not I want to help your bar RP grow, along with the rest of our community. Maybe in the long term you'll come to see that and won't see me as someone who is just out to get you.

It's nice that you want to "help" our RP and all, but it seems to me your are more upset about the lobby being fill with messaged that you refuse to block, rather than actually wanting to help our community out. In addition to that, maybe what our RP does to improve itself should come from within, not from somebody trying to kick our fun from the lobby.

I want to see how the poll plays out before I make anymore more moves. Don't expect a response from me again until then.

I've been on the site for almost two years now, and as one of those people who almost never participates in the lobby, I don't think the bar's existence really makes any difference, and isn't a problem.

Over my time being here, the lobby has always been dominated by a clique, it's just the clique has slowly changed over time. Before the bar clique, there was a different clique, and after the bar clique is gone, there will be a new clique, that's just the way public chat spaces like this seem to work.

Honestly, the bar roleplay actually got me to try to participate a little bit, but my half-hearted attempts didn't go far, as I just don't feel like I fit very well with the current lobby clique, just like I have never felt like I fit very well with any of the previous lobby cliques. I will say, though, at least the bar roleplay -feels- more open to just walking in and joining. I mean, one of the previous cliques was mostly people just shit talking and insulting each other, and it was difficult to tell if they were really angry or not, and I -certainly- did not want a part of that, just in case.

The lobby is the lobby, it's almost always going to be dominated by a very small minority of the site users, whether it's a bar or not, and the vast majority of people on the site are almost never going to participate in it, no matter what, so I personally don't see why it matters. Still, I voted to keep allowing the bar roleplay because a vote of "no opinion" seems like a waste, and my thoughts are that the bar roleplay itself isn't really a problem.

Well said Herb. i would add that if say 30% of the people don't want the Bar in the lobby I would lobby to compromise and move the Bar to a private room. i would rather giving up on having the Bar in the lobby than potentially lose a good number of people from the site. But i voted for the Bar because i hope that a large plurality are ok with the bar in the Lobby. There was at least one person who said he liked to watch the activity in the bar.

I'm going to restate this whole thread as I've read it and come to understand it. One group feels excluded by another. So the excluded group wants to exclude the group that was doing the excluding.

Here's some things to consider:

1. I'm not saying that people haven't felt excluded or for valid reasons. But adding another layer of exclusion to solve the exclusion is no real solution at all. It is contradictory in it's approach, it has distinct elements of entitlement, and it just fragments us further.
2. There is no one "tried-and-true" way to make the lobby feel welcoming for everyone. I have personally tried to connect new people with federations when they've asked about them in the lobby and I was called out for it. These were federations I wasn't even a member of or affiliated with, mind you - just federations matching the person's interest. But again, the point here is that we can't say there is "one-way" the lobby needs to be to welcome people.

To my understanding, the bar has already separated off into it's own room, which solves the concerns raised by some members. But are we happy to have solved this problem of exclusion through exclusion? If you are, I think you need to be more honest with yourself about what the real problem was here from the very beginning and the trappings of such a "solution."

And sometimes, just sometimes....hug more and fight less. Cheers all.

I stand by my initial statement that the block function is more than sufficient to solve this problem. Being told we can't do our RP in a public space because a few people refuse to use the block function, that feels right to me.

I appreciate your thoughts. I would like to just stress that this isn't about exclusion at all, although I can see how you could get that from this discourse. I don't think anyone feels excluded from the bar rp, the primary issue, at least the reason I pitched the idea about the bar RP getting it's own room is that it had pretty much taken over the lobby and in the mists of their larger RP sessions it was quiet common for other peoples conversations, or even people trying to attract like minded people for a match (which I think we can all agree is the main purpose for most people here) to get drowned out in the middle of that massive RP. I just genuinely thought that the bar having it's own room would be nothing but a boon for that RP. They don't have to worry about other conversations interfering with their RP, no one that doesn't want to be pulled into the RP doesn't have to worry about it (yes that did happen quite a lot) and it helps increase the overall visibility of messages in the lobby.

General lobbies in chat rooms are always the most difficult to maintain because you want the lobby to be active however you don't want it to be so active that new people are intimidated by it or that it gets hard to keep track of what is going on. It's a delicate balancing act, and personally I think the bar RP has grown large enough at this point to stand on it's own, and from my understanding with their new room they are doing quiet well and I'm happy for that. I honestly think this is a win-win situation.

Thanks for providing more context and helping me understand things more clearly, Kit. I do still disagree on two points, though.

First, I don't think we can agree that the main purpose of ChatFighters is for people finding/attracting like-minded others for a match. It definitely was that in the beginning and I'm sure that's the intent the Admin and the Tech had in mind when they launched the site, but lockdowns and social isolation had an immense impact on how even our digital community here operates and takes shape. Both myself and several of my friends here had come to use ChatFighters as a social place that meets some of our socializing needs during the pandemic. For myself, I've gotten closer to a lot of the people here than some of my other real-life friends just because of the social difficulties the past year and a half have presented. Also, I'm also not arguing that many here don't see ChatFighters as a place to find and attract like-minded others for a match - I think you're right that many do. But I think it is presumptuous to think we have a handle on what the community comes here for - that is diverse and ever-shifting. Moreover, some of the comments on this thread include people who don't partake in the bar roleplay but have found it to be a positive thing. Other's have echoed support for the bar RP but want others to feel safe and included in the community here at ChatFighters as well.

That leads me to my second point of disagreement: I disagree that the bar having it's own room is a win-win situation. I think removing it from the lobby sterilizes the lobby in a way that removes some of positive aspects some found about the bar RP. That said, I also acknowledge Atlas' well made points about the lobby being a more sterile place that is welcoming for all and how that benefits the community as well.

In the end, I want to be completely transparent and offer that I don't have a win-win solution to propose myself. This is a really hard issue and lots of people from multiple perspectives have raised valid points - I just don't want us to try simplify this to a situation that has a clear "right" and "wrong" solution. That doesn't serve us as a collective community.

I agree with you whole heartedly really. And while you say you don't think we can agree that the main purpose of ChatFighters is for people finding/attracting like-minded people for a match, that's really what draws people here in the first place, which is what makes it the main purpose. While I totally agree that many people do come here now for the social aspect and just chatting with people (I'm one of them as too many negative experiences have caused me to stop fighting online), for most people that isn't what brought them here, that's what made them stay. To use an analogy, you might go to a new restaurant to try the food and the food ends up just being average, but you find that the staff are super friendly and nice and you enjoy talking with them, so you start to frequent the place, not necessarily because of the food but because of the social aspect. This doesn't make the main purpose of the restaurant socializing with the staff, it's main purpose is still it's food. And I think ChatFighters is much the same way, we all came here hoping to find like minded people to have fun with, but we all stay for our own reasons which may or may not be the main purpose of the site.

Also I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong, at all, it's a matter of what is best for the community at large. I don't think that the guys who do the bar RP are wrong at all, and it's not about sterilizing the lobby, at least not from me (since I'm the one that started this whole mess). It's about doing what is best for everyone involved, that's why I said moving the bar RP to it's own room is a win-win. The lobby doesn't really lose the positive aspects of the bar RP, because the positive aspect is the social interaction that it brings, despite what a lot of people keep saying, the lobby doesn't suddenly die when the RP stops. Yes it becomes less active, and it is up to us more veteran members to keep it lively (although I don't feel like I'm much of a veteran personally), but it doesn't really lose anything and the people that are part of the bar RP get more functionality and less disturbances in their RP then before (I won't say they don't get anyone because we all know someone will go in just to antagonize them), as well as being a place to attract people that like that style of roleplay. That's why I call it a Win-Win, both sides do benefit and I think just looking at the lobby and the Welcum chats today have really shown that, at least to me anyway.

(Part 2 of my reply cuz I went over the character limit lol)

And I do very much think another group will pop up doing a similar thing and will grow it's community and when that time comes I will make the exact same suggestion then. So I guess for me it's not about sterilizing the lobby but helping the cliques and small communities that pop up in the lobby to grow. I never suggested the bar move to their own room before because frankly it was very small and not all that common, it would have died off had it moved sooner, but now it is large enough that it dominates the lobby and makes any other conversation difficult and can be overwhelming for newcomers so I felt it was big enough to stand on it's own without the crutch of the lobby, and honestly it seems I was right. The Welcum seems to be doing great with it's room and I am genuinely happy to see that.

Thanks again for more clarification and discussion, Kit! And yeah, the whole conversation yesterday just took me by surprise. I haven't been in chat for a few months now probably but had been around in messages. But I came back in chat yesterday to all this and it was....odd. It just wasn't something I would have expected given my time and experiences before.

That's why the exclusionary tone of things was something I honed in on yesterday - CF has never been exclusionary to me and this felt like that yesterday. I feel like you have articulated your thoughts well on why you would like the bar RP to have it's own room, but I feel others have articulated their thoughts well on why they like it in the lobby. I just don't know where we go from here. I'd rather us have data on what people want (i.e., the results of the poll) to know how to proceed. I think that will add greatly to this narrative and help us understand what the community at large is requesting happen to resolve this.

I just hope we all see that no matter the results of the poll, we all want CF to thrive and flourish, and I believe it can continue to grow for everyone. :-)

Totally agree. Full on. And honestly I think just seeing the sudden change for both the lobby and the new bar RP room (which I hear is doing rather well) I still think it's a great idea for all parties involved, and I will happily be suggesting to people that seem like they would be interested in that style of RP to check out the Welcum. I think it's a great idea, just needs it's own place to grow and thrive.

I'm not interested in prescribing a solution yet when there are more things to consider. Before we think of the bar as relegated off to it's own room permanently, let's see what happens with the community at large via the poll.

Thanks for your patience and openness, Kit.

My recollection was that Chatfighters was an outgrowth from Meetfighters. That the main purpose of Chatfighters was NOT to initiate real life matches. That is what Meetfighters is for. i wonder if the administrator have a statement of purpose somewhere on the site.

OK in the last 12 hours you made a number of comments that sound very team building - but let's remember what you went to Admin and asked for.

Keep the #lobby bar open?

Yes!
No!
What? / No opinion.

You went to admin to shut down the bar.
You have your lofty reasons, but you didn't come to us and ask about it. You went to admin to have his wrecking ball come through the bar in the name of fairness. I take back nothing said yesterday - if there's a special group that has a roleplay going, maybe they need their space for it. But please, you're trying to dress in saintly garb that isn't there. Truthful words are not beautiful; beautiful words are not truthful. Good words are not persuasive; persuasive words are not good. (Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching)

1 - You want the bar gone
2 - you went over everyone's head to do it.
3 - we noticed

I'm afraid you are mistaken Erik. I did not go to the admin and ask to have the bar shut down. I did not go to the admin at all.

This all started when I suggested to Blank in a very friendly way that the RP would be best served by having it's own room. At which point I was villainized, insulted, and treated like a pariah for simply making the suggestion. Myself and several others expressed our opinion in an open forum in the lobby where the only reply we got was "you are just trying to dictate what goes on in the lobby". I did suggest taking it to the admins to see their opinion on the thing after the conversation become hostile and I was being directly attacked by a specific person. I submitted a report about the person that was directly attacking me in the lobby but I did not ask to have this poll made. In fact very early on in this thread I mentioned that I did not like the title of this poll as it was very disingenuous to the topic at hand.

This poll was made by the admins, with literally no input from me what so ever, and while I have not talked to you personally this whole thing started by me talking to Blank about it in the lobby very politely. If you want to have an actual discourse, I am always open to it, however it seems the more this conversation goes on the less discourse that occurs and the more that it comes down to passive aggressive comments like yours.

1 - You are wrong
2 - You are very wrong
3 - You inferred something that you didn't understand.

My original reaction was "Wait! I'm now one of the 'mean girls'?" I was about to argue against this premise but when I came back after work, #WelCum had been created, it was full of people I like, and it was a lot of fun. And I didn't have to read a lot of comments which didn't interest me but I never considered policing. I would hit "Mute in Lobby" or, in more egregious cases, "Block."

If there is a downside to the arrangement, I have fewer opportunities to find a new person interesting and they have fewer chances of encountering me.

I find the lobby bar to be entertaining, The characters are engaging and interesting. I seldom participate actively for the same reason I wouldn't run onto the stage from the audience at a Broadway play. I find the actors so good, that I'd rather watch their antics than try to compete. In fact there are a few characters who, for various reasons, have been away from active participation in the lobby who I have messaged to say how much I missed them. I think the site would be diminished by the loss of the institution. I want to thank those active participants, including many of those who have commented here, for enriching my Chatfighters experience.

I was touched by your response. And thanks for taking the time to reach out to Mron and get to know him a bit.

I think that sanitizing the main lobby of roleplay is a mistake.

I understand that some people can be intimidated by a clique of people.
I understand that some people can feel obligated to reply to roleplay with roleplay or conversation in kind, and thus by proxy, not interact at all.
I even understand the purpose of the lobby's existence being a neutral ground from which people can get a glimpse of someone that is far less manicured than a profile and quote blurbs.

As others have said, the bar scene appeared because there was a void. And before the void there was another clique.
Another will rise and soon, someone will ask for that group to move their little party to another room.
People are still going to log in, see the lobby, see someone they deem to be obnoxious, and silently disappear.
Or worse, see a sparse dotted landscape of the occasional message that is likely to get ignored with the extroverts in another channel.

If the lobby had read as nothing but people asking for a fight, I would likely have lost interest in the place.
I like stumbling into conversations.
I like that I don't have to slide into someone's dm to have a conversation.

The block button exists for a reason.
If there are people you don't enjoy talking to or listening to, its very simple to remove those offending messages and presences.

As of 11pm to 1am tonight, I see a total of 20 messages in the lobby.
They are still mostly roleplay oriented.
It's not a bar but I fail to see difference between serving virtual drinks and offering virtual sandwiches.
6 of those messages read: "Hi."

In the #welcum lobby, I had to click "get more messages" 4 times to reach 11 o clock.
Conversations, the ability to post pictures, and yes, even some bar roleplay.

Nobody has a stranglehold on the lobby's content.
Everyone is allowed to contribute and on a site like this, conflicts are easily resolved with a fight or a block.
There's a good chance that if you don't want to read a persons conversation, you don't want to fight them in the first place.

But if you have to block 20+ people to have a good time in the lobby, maybe making your own separate room/federation was the better way to go in the first place.

A functionality we already thankfully have.

You really hit the nail on the head for the most part. The only thing I disagree with that you said is the idea that anyone is trying to purge the lobby of role play. The entire argument, at least from my side of things is that the Bar RP has gotten so big that it drowns out everything else. I think everyone agrees that everyone should be allowed and encouraged to contribute whatever they want to the lobby as you said. But if a long form roleplay is drowning everything else out no one else can contribute if they want to. And as you mentioned as well having it's own room enables those that want to engage with the bar to do more and see more. It also encourages the people that interact with that room to engage with each other more. There really is not downside to that move.

The lobby is not going to die and become just people looking for matches, people will always have conversations in the lobby, that's kind of the point of it. To be a starting point and general chat area rather than dedicated to any one thing. It's a balancing act. Yes small roleplay will happen, and should be encouraged to some degree in the lobby but once it grows and has a lot of people constantly engaging with it, then it would better serve all those who engage in it to create their own room where they can focus on what they want.

I guess this is a matter of perception, because I don't think it's true that the bar RP drowns out everything else. I am not sure if there is a way to assess this objectively, though.

It doesn't drown out everything all the time, but at it's peak time, it very much does monopolize the lobby, at which point any non RP related comment gets lost in the sea of RP. I think it's a matter of when each of us are online as to what we see. I tend to be on a lot so I see all the different times. *shrugs*

As one of the characters that made the integrated lobby interesting, your comments were never drowned out to these ears (or is it eyes). They always served as a sardonic and incisive commentaryon life in the lobby and otherwise. To me, your comments while still the product of a fertile mind, will be less powerful due to the lack of juxtaposition with the more raucous bar crowd. That, to me, is a shame.

I appreciate that, and I think you are actually making a really good point as for why the bar should have it's own room (which it now does), and I'm not even sure if that was your intention or not, often hard to read intention online. But yeah I agree.

I would say people talking about their lunches and personal lives also drowns out the lobby. Where do you draw the line between people serving each other fictional drinks, and talking about their subway sandwiches or personal injuries. If we are going to pretend that the lobby should only be for meeting up and fighting or whatever, then there going to have hard choices made as to what doe and does not belong there. You're typical chitchat in my opinion is just as "offensive" as me have a talk with people while making them a latte.

On that note, not everything the "Bar RP" does is rooted in actions that play out a bar life, but often delve into similar talks you yourself have Kit. I talk about my personal life in the chat, my feeling regarding work, my struggles, and I'm not alone. I don't know if you can see my long winded sentences that usually carry a description, but there is context to thing I say there, regardless if you see it or not.

The RP section that we engage in is in supplement to the purpose of meeting and chatting with people we like. Some of us just like to build a story while doing it, and you wanting to sanitize of the Lobby of those actions all because you don't want to use the block button really shows an unwillingness to tolerate how others choose to have fun differently than you. You don't get to tell me how I have fun in public spaces.

Block the people who are offending you and move on. It works.

Madison I appreciate you actually opening a dialog here, though I would appreciate it more if you would lay off the passive aggressiveness.

To respond no one, and I mean that whole heartily, no one is saying that the lobby should be only for meeting up and fighting. What is being said is that lobby should be for general use purpose. The analogy has been made several times before in this thread and I will reiterate it again here: It's like a hotel, you have the main lobby where everyone can meet up and talk and get to know each other, but also has a variety of rooms large and small for different things.

I might be misunderstanding this so please correct me if I am, but it seems that you are taking this as people saying we don't want you or others that participate in the bar RP in the lobby and that's not the case. While I think it's great that you want to build a story about of what you have going on the lobby just isn't the place to do that, especially when you or others in your group take such a hostile stance against those who do not participate, or conversely try to drag people into your RP that do not want to be part of it, as has happened with me several times. You want more then just general chatting, that's great, and that is what the rooms are for: taking those interactions further.

You are right I don't read your long winded descriptions because by the simple fact that they are long winded RP descriptions posted in the general chat they come off, to me at least, in a very negative way.

As I have said multiple times already, I think small roleplay in the lobby is great, and it wasn't until recently that I had any sort of issue with the bar RP. The RP has just grown and as stated many, many times now, as a group you get more benefits from using your own private room and it costs you literally nothing. You have the room now, from what I hear it's very active with lots of people talking and engaging in it, so I ask you honestly, why to you is it important that those roleplays happen in the lobby instead of in it's own dedicated space like all other roleplays?

You have probably noticed I am trying it your way with a side room now #Welcum. I do so under duress, and as Jackhammer Rod Jackson told me last night, wasn't really my place to do so. There are people who were very lively there last night feel they are being shunted to the side by your group. Last night was pretty lively in the #WelCum room, all while the Lobby was pretty quiet. It's a good sign it could work, and I'll admit that what you and Puncher say about the positives of the room are true. It still feels like we are being chased off from the lobby for doing what I feel is functionally the same thing you and your general group does with talking about lunches.

I've seen your group engage in RP too, like when Alpha Kama drops s hot tub during the day, or when Shakira is running around. People are feeling ostracized by your actions here and the creation of this poll in general. If you can't see that, then we simply will not get along on this topic. There is an entire group who loves the bar shenanigans that take place from around 21:00 - 0:00 EST, it often starting up before then, and it really feels like you and a few others are telling them to get out of the lobby all because you don't like seeing their fun, all while you can simply block them.

I stand by ErikAtlas. Lobby etiquette need to be defined.

I have noticed and I've heard good things about it, and you aren't being pushed out of the lobby at all, though I can understand why you feel that way, and for me at least, and the reason I suggested the room to begin with (I will admit I did not explain myself well initially), is purely based on the sheer size of the RP you guys get. The lobby should be accessible to all, I think you can agree with that, but once an RP gets too big it then starts to take over the lobby and pushes out the majority that don't want to engage in it. The big difference is that by having the bar have it's own room, the people that like to engage in the bar RP and that want to just shoot the shit in the lobby can have both. Where as if any RP takes over the lobby there isn't another place for those that don't want to engage in that particular RP to go.

I have never said, and I never will say that no RP should happen in the lobby. Hell I actually took part in your bar RP for a while (if you remember the robot butler Atwood, that was me). Small short RP that just sort of breaks the ice between two or three people or something like that should be encouraged, and that's what the bar RP used to be. Now it's grown to the point that when it's at it's most populated there is nothing else but the bar RP leaving those who just want to shoot the shit stranded.

I would love to see the chat grow to the point that we have that huge list of rooms on the left filled with people all actively talking and engaging with each other, and I'd love for people to still talk and stay active in the lobby too. I do what I can to keep the lobby active and I know that's what you want to and I commend that.

And to your comment about "t really feels like you and a few others are telling them to get out of the lobby all because you don't like seeing their fun" you aren't not wrong. Think about this, you go to a soccer field wanting to play soccer, and when you get there a bunch of guys are playing football on the soccer field. There is a football field right next to the soccer field. Should the people that showed up to play soccer be forced to sit and watch the people play football instead of playing soccer or should the people playing football go use the football field?

Thank you for owning that you are trying to tell others to take their fun out of the lobby, Kit. More importantly, why do you get to say you are the soccer player in your analogy? You have an inherent assumption of the value of your perspective but consistently dismiss and outright ignore the value demonstrated by the other perspective.

Moreover, you have consistently said you think it's great that the bar RP has broken off into another room as if that is the solution that we should all recognize as the ideal solution here. However, many have indicated that they do NOT think that is the ideal solution here. Many here have given valid reasons why they enjoy the bar RP in the lobby. We all need to respect and value the contributions made to this conversation. So please stop ignoring contributions counter to yours, Kit, and stop pushing for the outcome that you clearly preference. It's clearly disingenuous to your original claim that you want an environment for all.

I've been away from chat for months, just returning last night to this shit storm. I knew three guys in the bar chat before last night - I know many more as of today. I can tell you that the bar folk have made me feel very welcomed back to the site in my brief time back. My voice is just one of many, but I am so completely frustrated that the voices of support for the bar RP remaining in the lobby continue to be passed over or ignored by you, Kit. And please know that my intent is not to attack you, Kit - but the shift of and inconsistencies in your stance are too numerous to ignore at this point, on top of ignoring valid points counter to your stance.

And can we just not appreciate the absurdity of where this conversation is for a moment? That is not meant to be dismissive of anyone in this conversation, so please hear me out on this. We're on a website dedicated to RP...and arguing about whether or not RP belongs in the lobby...on a website dedicated to RP. When this was an issue of exclusion, I was interested in conversing and learning more. But as this has shifted to a discussion of whether or not we should ban RP chat in the lobby of a RP website, I am thoroughly confused why this topic is even worth debating at this point.

I'm here for the community. Always have been. Thanks again to the Tech and Admin for all their work and for enduring issues like this to bring us this website we ALL appreciate and use.

OK, fair. I know you're not the only person advocating that the bar gets moved to a separate room, and that it would thus be inadequate to use your position to represent all the people who do, but I'd just like to notice that the initial argument that read something like (whether it was intended to or not) "The bar is excluding and intimidating other people, people who RP in it act like mean girls and provoke others on purpose, it goes on nearly 24/7 and drowns out everything else, it has contributed to people who don't want to RP leaving the site" has now been rephrased as:
"At its peak activity times, the bar RP dominates the lobby and the non-bar RP messages get lost in the sea of RP."
I am aware that it was not you who said all the things from the first quote, but I'm merging them all together, as sort of a summary of the initial argumentation. I think the two quotes are very different, and I think that it should be acknowledged that a lot of criticism that appeared in these comments seems unfounded. Again, not asking you specifically to do this, it's just your comment I'm replying to.

I can understand the reasoning behind the second quote, but I think it does create a risk of going on a slippery slope. As I mentioned in another comment (and as other mentioned too), conversations that exclude others, that are very active and where posts from outsiders get drowned out happen also outside of the bar RP. The bar RP might be indeed the most frequent "perpetrator", since each day, there are at least 2-3 instances of peak activity. But it's a matter of where the line should be drawn. The simplest solution would be the all/nothing approach, but as you already noted in your reply to Chad, this has serious issues of its own.

So let me start by addressing your concern about the two quotes being very different. Firstly they are. In fact only one person has stated that the bar RP has been exclusionary and acting like "mean girls" looking at all of the other comments from others who do support moving the bar RP to it's own room, no one else has echoed or even supported that claim, it was one persons opinion and is clearly not shared by the majority, and I personally have even said that I disagree with that statement. However the statement that it goes on nearly 24/7 and drowns out much of the other conversations or leaves little to no room for other conversations to grow from it has be reiterated many times. I had said that at (the bar rps) peak times it very clearly dominates the lobby, however the fact is that that RP never really stops it just slows down. The only thing that the bar RP guys lose by having their own room is the attention of the majority who do not want to interact with it.

I am sure that the person who made the claim about the bar RP driving some new people away have a basis for this, and the number of new people who have come forward from this conversation saying they felt uncomfortable in the lobby because the bar RP support that theory.

At the end of the day the heart of the argument is "is the lobby the best place for the bar RP" And personally, I don't see that the bar RP gains anything by being in the lobby other than the couple of people that do it just to annoy others (I'm not saying that most of the people that do engage in the bar RP are like that but there are a couple that are) not being able to instigate and aggravate others as much.

And yes the simplest solution would be an all or nothing approach but to be fair to everyone the simplest solution, especially in this case is not the best.

At the end of the day the heart of the argument is "is the lobby the best place for the bar RP"

I would equally question if the lobby is the best place to talk about your lunches, your injuries, your daily life, anything else. Why is serving drinks to friends off limits and your general chatter not? ErikAtlas is correct, the role of the Lobby needs to be defined because right now it's come off and really one-sided as to what is allowed in there and what isn't, that that seems like it is being handed out by a handful of people who simply don't want to use the block tool at their disposal to solve their problem.

I'm sorry but your entire basis is why off here. It's a general lobby, yes I talk about random shit, most people do. At least to me the lobby doesn't need to be defined because it already is. It is a lobby. It is a place for people to meet and chat and socialize. The difference between just a random conversation and a full RP comes down to intent, length, and depth. Most conversations stay very high level and short. An RP, especially what we have seen from your bar RP is very long, builds on previous interactions within that RP. When any conversation I have starts getting deep or really personal or is going to become a RP or match or whatever I take it out of the lobby, because well it's a lobby.

I would still honestly like you to explain to me what you feel that your bar RP loses by having it's own dedicated room. Many of us have talked about the benefits you gain from it and several people have stated what they see as a downside to the lobby by losing it (though I believe those are inaccurate and the lobby ultimately loses nothing) but I have yet to hear what the bar RP loses by getting it's own private space. Are you worried that people won't interact with it anymore? If that's the case then, again as I've said before, it wasn't really that popular or well liked, and you've already taken to encouraging people to come to your new room which no one has said anything against, and if they did I would happily stand up for you there. So please tell me what you feel you lose by having your roleplay in your own room? I will gladly try to help with that.

I know you probably don't believe this but I would like to see your Bar RP continue to grow, I just don't think that the lobby is the place for it as it is a niche RP that has the potential to cause people to leave. And whatever the next clique is that starts up in its place, if that does indeed happen, I will step up and suggest the same thing again.

"However the statement that it goes on nearly 24/7 and drowns out much of the other conversations or leaves little to no room for other conversations to grow from it has be reiterated many times."
Indeed it has, but I would argue that this perception is inaccurate. I don't want to go into whether the Rp ever stops, because it's not so important. I can agree that the RP happens a lot. During most of the day, however, it is slow, and, in my perception, doesn't drown out other people. During the times of peak activity, it does drown them out, but other lively conversations drown outsiders out as well.

I agree that those who said that the bar RP drives other people away have *some* basis for it, but I'm not convinced it's a solid one. The number of people who spoke out in support of that particular claim seems small to me. Like someone else said (I believe it was Red Bear, not sure though), it would be really nice to see some quantitative data on the matter.

The bar chatter is at least interesting and fun. I would have preferred that the whole gummy talk that was so prevalent a few months ago was relegated to a different room.

The talk of gummies felt like I stepped into a fat care facility and did nothing to create a sense of any adult fun. But I ignored it. So why can’t people just tune out the minor bar chatter?

But the lobby should be open to discuss anything — but let’s not focus on one topic for too long.

I agree about the gummies. But i never advocated that the gummy comments in the lobby stop. If i saw gummies in the lobby, i did not enter the lobby.

AND....another thing about the gummies! lol. you just hit on the argument and example against Kit's argument that you can have a limited amount of roleplay in the lobby.

Maybe I am an odd duck. I love the antics and ideas of everyone. I love to see how my fellow characters interact. That includes people who are playing the bar game as well as those who aren't. I like diversity. The current lobby situation requires me to go back and forth to see my favorites, and makes them more unidimensionasl and less interesting. Since today is the 72nd anniversary of the founding of the Peoples Republic of China, I will quote Mao Zaedong. "Let the hundred flowers bloom. Let the hundred schools of thought contend."

I bow to you alpha pounder and bow to your dreams !

The man behind
MRon

Trying to restrict or gate what kind of chat occurs in the lobby, within current site rules, is what's going to turn off new people to the community and set an unfriendly vibe.

So if you say there can't be any 'bar rp' people are going to unknowingly start to do some kind of RP at some point and if this precedent gets established they are going to continually be told to take it to a private room and stop rping. THAT is an unfriendly/unwelcoming vibe. This is a silly thing to be upset about.

I just want to make sure I am understanding your point correctly. You feel it's more unwelcoming to have a lobby that is focused on general chat, discourse, and not a specific RP with rooms for specific RP than it is to have a lobby that is specifically one kind of RP exclusively?

I would argue against that, and since the bar RP is the topic of this discussion I will use it as an example (albeit a rather extreme one, admittedly). Lets say that the lobby stays with the bar RP, which by itself then limits all other forms of RP from happening in the lobby, and someone new joins the site, they are a recovering alcoholic, they join the lobby and are immediately greeted by a bar scene. They are gone instantly. This stands true for anyone who is trying to avoid alcohol all together, or perhaps has had bad experiences with bars or whatever. And this could be said for any RP scenario that gets set up in the lobby.

However if the lobby is just a bunch of people just talking about real human things, maybe lightly poking fun at each other, the new person comes in they are less likely to encounter a trigger that would cause them to immediately leave. And with the bar having it's own room it opens it up for those that want to pull someone they enjoy talking to into the bar RP to sort of feel out their RP style to invite them to join that room and go from there.

That is an assumption you make in your second paragraph. i would tend to agree for alcoholics who don't have it under control or just entered treatment. But I personally know of at least four alcoholics who would go to bars and take part in festivities. They just didn't drink. Richard R would drink coke and end up driving us home. Another friend took part in the infamous "go to every bar between Baton Rouge and New Orleans in a night" trip. He drank no alcohol but was essential as he drove us everywhere. We were worried that he would have no fun but he said he had a blast. i know for a fact that those two friends would love running into the Bar.

Doesn’t matter if they are fresh recovery or long term, the fact remains first thing they see is a reminder to a temptation that could have possibly ruined their lives. When all they are here for is a Roleplay fight, that’s imposing something onto them personally which I do believe if the take it as a personal affront is against house policy

Adding to this whether u agree or disagree with my comment above is it really that big of a deal to make a “bar room” and just move it there to show respect for those who don’t want it in the lobby? Are people really that disrespectful?

Well, one of the major points of AA is learning to live in a world full of triggers. That's why i brought up my friend Richard who is a recovering alcoholic. He goes to bars with drinking friends. I asked him why he does that. He said the point of the AA treatment is not to avoid the triggers but to face those triggers and master them.

But i suppose that avoidance is also one strategy, so you have some sort of point.

I have a simple question about the poll. Is there a closing date or some criterion or criteria that marks the ending of this democratic exercise and the announcement of the result?

Close the bar and the lobby. I never pay attention to the nonsense going on in there anyway.

I don't understand that bar stuff. It doesn't add to the fight atmosphere of the site and just seems like a club that some members belong to. Just make it a room and people can go there or not.

Really don’t think it should be a big deal. Go, don’t go, keep it in the lobby, make a bar room separate it really should not be the is big an issue. Just don’t be an asshole in the bar or in the lobby and you’ll be fine. That’s the biggest thing, respect. But all this is just dividing the site and bringing in a bad atmosphere. It’s all roleplay so in the end just be respectful, have fun and don’t go too crazy?

A voice of reason and common sense, concisely put, by Jungleman.

Agreed, the problem is assholes, not bars.

The voting is over.

• [57%] YES.
• [30%] No.
• [13%] What? / No opinion.

The ChatFighters Admin team did not ask "the bar" to move to a separate room during the voting, but I highly appreciated this gesture during the past few days. Thank you.

The question was about the specific bar topic, but the results will also influence how we deal with similar situations in the future.
I think it makes sense for ChatFighters to promote any kind of roleplay. And the voting result confirms that.

But we also can't ignore personal attacks, naming and shaming, and general insults in our official room.
Our rule for personal attack (plus naming and shaming, insults, and similar cases) gets extended for the #lobby:

• And specifically for the #lobby:
  • Personal attacks can be reported, even if it was meant to your character as trash talk or part of the roleplay.
    • Again: this rule is only valid for the #lobby.
  • Personal attacks must be reported within the two-hour history window of the #lobby
  • No 3rd party reports. (You can only report personal attacks which are directed at you)
  • Exception may be made on a case-by-case basis.
  • You have to use the chat "Report" button (click on the character in the chat, then select report)

Or, in other words, try to be a lovely human being, ignore people you have no common ground with, don't fight arguments just for the sake of arguing. Instead, use the site mute and block functions. Don't be a dick.

ChatFighter will review and adjust these rules as we see fit.

Cheers,
The Ref

Thank you for showing the results and clearing this up.

I didn't get to vote for this